DOUG PELMEAR’S 110 M.P.G.e V8 MUSTANG
[Get the latest "Truth With Speedzzter" here]
[NOTE: We've updated this still-developing story many times in subsequent posts. For the latest "Team HP2g" info available to "Truth With Speedzzter," Please click here or on the tags at the bottom of this post.
Since the publication of this post in 2009, Team HP2g stopped participating in the Progressive Automotive X Prize contest and announced construction of an engine factory in Ohio]
Has an inventor leading a small team from Napoleon, Ohio, U.S.A. created the “next big thing” in internal combustion?
(Truth with Speedzzter certainly hopes so.)
Garnering the attention of CNN and other national media, are engineer Doug Pelmear of “Team HP2g” and a demure, mid-1980s Ford Mustang notchback.
Outwardly, Team HP2g’s “miracle” Mustang looks like any of 10,000 other mild street/strip pony cars. Yet beneath the closed fox-body hood lurks a mystery motor of potentially legendary proportions. . . a claimed 110 m.pg.e E85-fueled, 400 horsepower V8 engine!
Can this be true?
To some gearheads and conventional-thinking engineers, this simply cannot compute.
To others, it promises that someone has finally discovered a way to unleash the huge amount of potential energy wasted in ordinary Otto-Cycle combustion.
Thus far, all of this is speculation, muzzled by the lengthy, hyper-expensive and time-consuming patent process. Only those insiders with Team Hp2g actually know the real potential of their “mystery motor.”
Will Doug Pelmear soon assume a place along side Henry Ford, Karl Benz, Rudolph Diesel, Alfred Buchi and other legends of the Automotive Pantheon?
Or will Team Hp2g become a soon-forgotten historical curiosity along the lines of those who designed and built the 1948 Tucker Torpedo, or Henry “Smokey” Yunick (who patented but failed to sell his “Hot Vapor Cycle Engine” (HVCE)), or innumerable others who mistakenly thought they had invented “the next big thing” in automobility?
In 2009, the Progressive Automotive X-Prize may yield part of the answer.
In the words of Team HP2g’s press release:
Already Team HP2g has signed on nearly a dozen sponsors, including a State of Ohio venture capital/technology incubator entity known as Rocket Ventures. The size of these sponsorships is unknown.
Many of us hot rodders, racers and auto enthusiasts are overjoyed that Team HP2g will apparently enter an 8-cylinder high performance car in the X PRIZE competition. Maybe the future won't be one of soulless, low-powered telephone-booths-on-wheels, after all.
While we all anxiously await the full public debut of the Pelmear engine (and hope that it's not another protracted wait in disappointment, as was the wait for Smokey Yunick's Hot Vapor Cycle (HVCE) engine of the 1980s), we have some questions:
1. Will the Pelmear/HP2g engine technology be marketed in the aftermarket or just to OEMs? (Yunick's failure to produce an aftermarket version of the HVCE stymied development and market pressure on the OEMs to investigate and/or adopt the technology)
2. Will the Pelmear/HP2g engine technology be licensed to multiple manufacturers?
3. Will the Pelmear/HP2g engine technology be "scalable" to BIG BLOCK V8s? (some of us would give up 50 or so m.p.g. for a lot more street/strip power)
4. Will the Pelmear/HP2g engine technology be adaptable to current engine platforms by enthusiasts and sportsmen racers?
5. Will the Pelmear/HP2g engine be a "closed system" that cannot be "hot rodded" or will it lend itself to additional modifications?
6. Are there any plans for a technical book on the Pelmear/HP2g engine (either before or after the X PRIZE competition?
7. Does HP2g have any support from Ford Motor Company(R)?
Others are taking a more skeptical approach: For example, at the At the X PRIZE forum, a sarcastic skeptic writing under the alias “Dr. Emmett L. Brown” wrote:
Another sarcastic skeptic, writing under the apparent psuedonym “Bill Nye,” picked up on the “Back to the Future” theme suggested by “Doc Brown” :
Doc Brown:
The sarcastic positions taken by Doc Brown and "Bill Nye" are pseudo-rational. It's easy to be skeptical. It takes no effort. No creativity. No work.
However, such skepticism BEFORE an actual competition is simply useless trash talk.
Team HP2g has every right to maintain secrecy about their proprietary technology during the patent process and the build-up to the X PRIZE competition.
From what I can tell Team HP2g isn't trying to sell anything to anyone at the moment. Therefore, Team HP2g is under no obligation to disclose anything that might be of help to their technologically-savvy competitors.
(The patented Valley Girdle Pro is a product sold by Team HP2g's chief engineer and has been tested with promising results by a number of sportsman racers. While it is certainly not the same thing as an expensive "DART block," it does appear to add a degree of stability to the weak valley area of production blocks for a modest cost).
In other forms of motorsports, teams seeking sponsorships don't bare all of their technical secrets to the general public or potential sponsors.
While all of us anxiously await the day when Team HP2g "lifts the hood," proves their claims (either in whole or in part) in documented, objective, independently-verified scientific testing, and explains their accomplishments to the world, sensible, RATIONAL people will wait until the X PRIZE competition for that moment.
Thus, the cynical, armchair musings of Doc Brown and "Bill Nye" are nothing more than the rantings of ignorant, impatient skeptics. If and when Team HP2g fails to deliver IN THE ACTUAL COMPETITION (and not before) , then perhaps such ridicule will be appropriate. Until such day, however, it's just an annoying waste of bandwidth.
BUT WHY USE A NEARLY ANTIQUE MUSTANG AS A STARTING POINT?
Apparently, because they can.
The X PRIZE competition SHOULDN'T just be about who can build the the lightest and highest M.P.G.e recumbent telephone-booth-on-wheels. That's been done scores of times before. The general public has little interest in such impractical, low-performance "futurist cars."
The X PRIZE, however, is a competition about building a "real" vehicle with real-world functionality AND breakthrough "part-throttle" (or off-peak) efficiency during that 95%-97% of the time a street vehicle doesn't need peak power.
Because high performance and sports machines (such as Ford Mustangs) are going to be part of the fleet mix for the foreseeable future, why shouldn't an innovative, grassroots team that manages to meet the threshold benchmarks for eligibility be permitted to compete with one? Why should they be badgered and second-guessed by self-appointed "know-it-alls" before the competition has even started? Why should they be hectored into revealing their proprietary secrets to satisfy the curiosity of armchair critics?
Isn't the actual competition the appropriate time for "putting up or shutting up?"
Given the inefficiency of traditional, mass-produced Otto-cycle engines (especially at part throttle), the minimal levels of horsepower necessary for 70%-85% of street driving (even for relatively large light vehicles), and the vast amount of potential energy in a gallon of E85, its not unbelievable that a breakthrough technology of some sort (or even an innovative combination of existing technologies) could produce dramatic increases in off-peak fuel efficiency.
If Team HP2g can show the X PRIZE officials that they meet the eligibility threshold, then they ought to have the chance to compete.
As for Truth With Speedzzter, We’d be dancing in the streets and cashing in our 401ks to invest if they produced a cost-effective, emissions-legal 45 M.P.G.e "failure," because it would probably mean that V8-powered sports cars, light trucks and SUVs could offered for years to come.
The alleged "thinking objections" of those who question the choice of a V8-powered Mustang as an X PRIZE competition vehicle aren't so much that Team HP2g’s claims are "so unbelievable that suspicion of foul play is warranted" and but instead are subconsciously motivated by the lack of correspondence between their claims and preconceived greeniac notions about what future motoring should become. Alas, not everyone shares such a bland and depressing "dream."
[This should come as no surprise to those familiar with the documented horsepower-phobia of "Click and Clack: The Tappet Brothers" and their legions of disciples]
BUT, there is no harm in withholding judgment until verified test results are available. That's what "thinking people" really do.
THERE ARE NO “ONE SIZE FITS ALL ANSWERS”
The initial entry list for the Automotive X PRIZE contains a wide variety of vehicles. The early speculation, however, centers on a few, highly aerodynamic electric hybrid concept cars proffered by well-funded teams. Team HP2g’s Fox-Body Mustang simply doesn’t fit this profile.
However, even true greeniacs don't reasonably expect people to strap a couple of 4'x8' sheets of drywall on top of a cramped $100,000+ Tesla roadster for the trek from Home Depot to the Job site. Nor could they really contemplate anyone towing a pair of 1000-pound show-horses behind a Fisker Karma. Or taking a 3,000 mile family vacation through the American West in some fruit-cup-sized plug-in electric commuter car.
Simply put, the future will need a diverse set of transportation solutions. And there's also freedom-of-choice to consider.
Moreover, whatever electrification or materials technology is developed in producing a production-viable and mass-marketable M.P.G.e "wundercar" can probably be adapted to improve the off-peak energy use of V8 Mustangs, to produce an even higher cost/benefit ratio of efficiency improvements.
The original rules announcement for the X PRIZE in a way contemplates this logic:
Quote:
Team HP2g, if successful, may be able to speed up this "technology transfer" process. Undoubtedly that's heresy to those "superior" ones believe that any V8 is "soul crushing" and stupid.
Nothing in Team HP2g's entry suggests that their proprietary technology couldn't be scaled to fit a tea-cup-sized electric hybrid.
And obviously Paccar (Peterbuilt), Wal-Mart, John Deere, GM and others are working on hybrid electrification of heavy commercial vehicles, so R&D in this area is hardly being neglected.
The open question for practical light vehicles, however, concerns the optimal mix of electrification and IC propulsion. Current high voltage batteries are heavy, expensive and subject to cold weather declines in performance. Current high-torque AC motors are also heavy and expensive. And even a small generator (or gas turbo-generator) of sufficient amp/hr output to propel a work vehicle has a not inconsequential weight. Thus, a useful electric hybrid vehicle cannot be lightened beyond a certain threshold without dramatic increases in cost and losses of functionality.
Downsizing "the electrics" to either a start-stop (microhybrid) system or a lower-power Honda IMA-style low-speed hybrid could prove to be a more economically reasonable balance.
The point of Team HP2g's entry is to showcase high performance powertrain technology that's attractive to the current mass market and adaptable to both heavy work vehicles and sporty machines. It is not to suggest that there are not feasible alternatives to moving the same mass with a greater quantum of Ready Kilowatts.
By the way, the fact that an engine has eight cylinders has little to do with its off-peak fuel efficiency.
For example, a giant, quaking four can be horribly inefficient and a pocket-sized V8 can be made very frugal. Improvements in thermal efficiency, lean burn systems, ethanol boosting, stratified pre-combustion chambers, cylinder deactivation, variable valve timing, turbocharging, turbocompounding and other emerging efficiency technologies could make V8s produce startling fuel efficiency numbers without any technological breakthroughs . . . and without losing the characteristics that have made V8s traditional favorites in the 3%-5% of the time when extra torque, horsepower and the glorious symphony sounds thereof are desired.
V8s are hardly evil incarnate, except in the perceptions of those (such as Click and Clack, the Tappett Brothers) who would dictate how we exercise our future automotive freedoms.
THE PROOF WILL BE IN THE COMPETITION
Some are wringing their collective hands at the secrecy of Team HP2g in the build-up to the X PRIZE competition:
"[T]hey don't answer even abstract questions about how they claim to achieve it."
Of course that will all be public record when the patent is approved and after the X PRIZE qualifing "race." What's the hurry? Answers to even abstract questions can sometimes reveal too much to industry insiders. I suspect their lawyers told them to say as little as posible.
"[T]they don't use an aerodynamic vehicle"
But they're prototyping an SUV engine! The Cd of an '80s Mustang isn't terrible (mid 30s) and it's a lot better than most SUVs or light trucks.
The frontal area of a fox-body Mustang is also reasonably attractive for a mainstream design. Besides, a quick scan of the X PRIZE entries shows more than a few vehicles as large and "unaerodynamic" as Team HP2g's Mustang, so not all of the engineers in the Mainstream Class are convinced that wild aero packages are necessary to run the number.
"[T]hey don't use a light vehicle"
Weight certainly is an issue and a major contributor to low-speed fuel use. But Team HP2g's car is about 1000 pounds lighter than a new Mustang and a couple of thousand lighter than Neil Young's Lincoln. By the way, a 2008 Prius weighs in at about a ton and a half. Team HP2g's advertised weight is 25 LESS than the curb weight of a 2008 Civic Hybrid. Even given the "heavy weight" and "horrible aero" of an '80s Mustang, it will take significantly less than 20 h.p. to maintain highway speeds.
A breakthrough in engine efficiency could theoretically extract enough energy from E85 to make high mileage possible. Something as simple as just temporarily deactivating half of the cylinders on a stock 5.7 liter Corvette (and using no new thermal recovery strategies or electrical assists) will raise the M.P.G. to 35 on the US EPA highway cycle, according to GM researchers. Team HP2g likely has "pushed the envelope" much, much farther than that
"[T]hey don't use a novel engine type (stock V8.)"
They claim a V8 configuration, but nothing in their materials says or even implies that it's "stock" or even close to stock. Instead they claim to have spent thousands of dollars on special castings, "electronics," and other custom parts.
"[A] prius with special engine and hybrid drive manages 50MPG."
A non-turbocharged Atkinson-cycle four on gasoline is hardly "special."
"[A] honda insight hybrid manages around 65MPG"
With a small, ordinary four cylinder augmented by some well-known valve timing gimmicks and a relatively small electric assist motor. Yawn. Zzzzz
"[A]nd they claim 110MPGe"
They'll have to prove at least 75 m.p.g. at the qualifer, won't they.
"[T]hey talk about racing and not fuel efficiency."
Have you read the X PRIZE rules? Did you miss the part about closed course testing on race tracks? Have you missed all of the references by the organizers calling the X PRIZE competition a "race?" And if they claim 110 M.P.G.e, aren't they talking about fuel economy?
"I see nothing in their favor..
even down to using a primary red font on a black background on their webpage."
Now that's a substantive reason to believe they're just a bunch of con artists . . . .
"[A]nd the date they claimed they would publish and demonstrate only amounted to a drag race. no showing of any relevant aspects. no video of the car where you could listen if it was just a completely stock [M]ustang"
They didn't claim they would "publish" anything. All they said was they were testing in public. One would expect that if the Car was a "completely stock Mustang" that somebody in the press or at Milan or atRocket Ventures would have figured that out by now.
Truth with Speedzzter has no idea whether Team HP2g will be able to make good on their claims or not. However, it does absolutely no good to ridicule the team before the competition has even started.
If one believes the future of private transportation is only soulless, cramped telephone-booths-on-wheels, powered by permanently-sealed "black box" propulsion units, then perhaps "a drag race" is irrelevant.
But, the fundamental idea of the X PRIZE isn't just to build the most compromised and highest m.p.g. vehicle possible. It's about building cars with "real world" attributes AND advanced operational efficiency.
In the real world, there are people who want increased "part throttle" fuel efficiency, yet still need (or want) serious power during 3%-5% of the driving cycle. There are people who will continue to need light vehicles that retain the occasional capacity to haul heavy loads of goods and equipment at highway speeds. There are people who will never surrender motoring enjoyment and performance capability at the "altar" of m.p.g. There are still people who desire dual purpose cars that can be driven daily and raced on the weekends.
Drag racing is a well-documented way to demonstrate the peak output and durability of an engine. It can demonstrate an important part of an engine's capability to the technologically-aware segment of the motoring public. It can also generate interest in a new concept or idea.
A 100 year tradition of automobile racing and "hot rodding" isn't just going to evaporate because a minority of power-hungry environmentalist-socialists are spreading their new global religion of "climate change." Thus, whatever happens, some of us will still be racing whatever there is left to race.
The X PRIZE would be a total failure if it degenerates into a ephemeral competition between flimsy, freakish and impractical experimental "cars" that do nothing well but sip fuel. At least Team HP2g has entered a vehicle with "real world" attributes of interest to the millions who don't plan on giving up the essence of high performance motoring merely to appease the greeniacs.
Truth with Speedzzter sincerely hopes Team HP2g can meet and even exceed their audacious claims . . . and do it with a V8! But it does no good to "trash talk" against them until they've had their day in the actual competition.
The bottom line is that Team HP2g has no obligation to say anymore to the public than has been necessary to secure the sponsorships required to compete in the X PRIZE. If I were them, I'd be enjoying all of the questioning and baseless speculation by the "intelligencia."
We will all know in due time during the X PRIZE competition.
http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=227 http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=224
________________________
Truth with Speedzzter hereby grants express permission to Team HP2g and the officials of the Automotive X PRIZE competition and Ford Motor Company (R) to use the foregoing blog entry with attribution.
All other rights reserved. Copyright 2008, 2009. The trademarks used herein and any copyrighted material quoted are the property of their various holders and are used herein under the terms of the Fair Use Doctrine of U.S. Copyright law.
Truth with Speedzzter is not affiliated with Team HP2g, Ford Motor Company (R) or the X Prize Foundation and does not intend to imply any relationship between Ford Motor Company (R)and any person or group.
[Get the latest "Truth With Speedzzter" here]
[NOTE: We've updated this still-developing story many times in subsequent posts. For the latest "Team HP2g" info available to "Truth With Speedzzter," Please click here or on the tags at the bottom of this post.
Since the publication of this post in 2009, Team HP2g stopped participating in the Progressive Automotive X Prize contest and announced construction of an engine factory in Ohio]
Has an inventor leading a small team from Napoleon, Ohio, U.S.A. created the “next big thing” in internal combustion?
(Truth with Speedzzter certainly hopes so.)
Garnering the attention of CNN and other national media, are engineer Doug Pelmear of “Team HP2g” and a demure, mid-1980s Ford Mustang notchback.
Outwardly, Team HP2g’s “miracle” Mustang looks like any of 10,000 other mild street/strip pony cars. Yet beneath the closed fox-body hood lurks a mystery motor of potentially legendary proportions. . . a claimed 110 m.pg.e E85-fueled, 400 horsepower V8 engine!
V8 engine?
400 horsepower?
110 m.p.g.e?
Can this be true?
To some gearheads and conventional-thinking engineers, this simply cannot compute.
To others, it promises that someone has finally discovered a way to unleash the huge amount of potential energy wasted in ordinary Otto-Cycle combustion.
Thus far, all of this is speculation, muzzled by the lengthy, hyper-expensive and time-consuming patent process. Only those insiders with Team Hp2g actually know the real potential of their “mystery motor.”
Will Doug Pelmear soon assume a place along side Henry Ford, Karl Benz, Rudolph Diesel, Alfred Buchi and other legends of the Automotive Pantheon?
Or will Team Hp2g become a soon-forgotten historical curiosity along the lines of those who designed and built the 1948 Tucker Torpedo, or Henry “Smokey” Yunick (who patented but failed to sell his “Hot Vapor Cycle Engine” (HVCE)), or innumerable others who mistakenly thought they had invented “the next big thing” in automobility?
In 2009, the Progressive Automotive X-Prize may yield part of the answer.
In the words of Team HP2g’s press release:
TEAM HP2g is seeking your help in the most challenging test this Country will experience in the future for you and me, our children, our grandchildren and their children to come… the Progressive Automotive X PRIZE.
The X PRIZE is a contest sponsored by Progressive Auto Insurance and the X Foundation. The contestants of the X PRIZE must design, build and bring to market a vehicle achieving the equivalent of 100mpge (miles per gallon equivalent) with carbon emissions of less than 200g/mi. The goal of the Auto X PRIZE is to inspire engineers, auto makers and other entrepreneurs to build such a vehicle and eventually be mass produced for sale to the public. Competing against national and international teams, Horse Power Sales.Net has such a car available meeting these standards.
The car we will be entering into this contest is named HP2g. The HP2g is assembled by Americans, made with American auto parts by American workers. HP2g will carry four adults. It is one of the heaviest of all entries at 2,850 lbs, compared to the next vehicle weighing 1600 lbs. HP2g offers heat, air conditioning, cruise control, windshield wipers, seat belts, radio (basic creature comforts of existing production vehicles). To the best of my knowledge, HP2g is the only V8 engine participant entered and able to reach high acceleration speeds. All of these features will be beneficial for our participation and win in this cross country race in the 3rd quarter of 2009.
Team HP2g is seeking sponsorship in our endeavor. All races, events and demonstrations of HP2g (during the Progressive Auto X PRIZE) will be written and televised worldwide. Your Company will be given the rights to use our entry vehicle in any and all print ads, web pages, and material hand outs to help better promote your products.
For more than a decade, we at Horse Power Sales.Net, Inc. have developed, patented, marketed and sold automotive engine technologies designed to increase horsepower while drastically increasing fuel economy and decreasing harmful engine emissions. We feel confident in our technology and the performance of our vehicle will forever change American law makers and automotive manufacturers. HP2g will provide consumers with clean super efficient vehicle without sacrificing size, capability, image, safety, acceleration and performance.
Help us Change the WORLD!
Website: www.HP2g.com
Email : team@hp2g.com
Already Team HP2g has signed on nearly a dozen sponsors, including a State of Ohio venture capital/technology incubator entity known as Rocket Ventures. The size of these sponsorships is unknown.
Many of us hot rodders, racers and auto enthusiasts are overjoyed that Team HP2g will apparently enter an 8-cylinder high performance car in the X PRIZE competition. Maybe the future won't be one of soulless, low-powered telephone-booths-on-wheels, after all.
While we all anxiously await the full public debut of the Pelmear engine (and hope that it's not another protracted wait in disappointment, as was the wait for Smokey Yunick's Hot Vapor Cycle (HVCE) engine of the 1980s), we have some questions:
1. Will the Pelmear/HP2g engine technology be marketed in the aftermarket or just to OEMs? (Yunick's failure to produce an aftermarket version of the HVCE stymied development and market pressure on the OEMs to investigate and/or adopt the technology)
2. Will the Pelmear/HP2g engine technology be licensed to multiple manufacturers?
3. Will the Pelmear/HP2g engine technology be "scalable" to BIG BLOCK V8s? (some of us would give up 50 or so m.p.g. for a lot more street/strip power)
4. Will the Pelmear/HP2g engine technology be adaptable to current engine platforms by enthusiasts and sportsmen racers?
5. Will the Pelmear/HP2g engine be a "closed system" that cannot be "hot rodded" or will it lend itself to additional modifications?
6. Are there any plans for a technical book on the Pelmear/HP2g engine (either before or after the X PRIZE competition?
7. Does HP2g have any support from Ford Motor Company(R)?
Others are taking a more skeptical approach: For example, at the At the X PRIZE forum, a sarcastic skeptic writing under the alias “Dr. Emmett L. Brown” wrote:
Sounds like an amazing product.
I am very interested in how a 2850 lb Fox body Mustang is capable of 0-60 in 3 seconds or less.
I am also curious as to how you got to exactly 400 Bhp/500lb ft as well, sounds like a rounded number.
I also want to know why you choose E85 Ethanol instead of gasoline or gasohol as E85's efficiency for miles per gallon is the worst fuel to hit American blacktop since the double pumper four barrel Holley.
And finally I am very interested in how a pushrod V8 based engine that is not direct injected is capable of 110 MPG on 17" Cobra wheels that are heavier than U238.
I highly suspect that this is nothing more than a ploy to swindle some investors out of their hard earned money from a company that brought the world the "valley girdle", the most useless product to touch the Small Block Ford Community since Corky Bell. [sic]
Another sarcastic skeptic, writing under the apparent psuedonym “Bill Nye,” picked up on the “Back to the Future” theme suggested by “Doc Brown” :
I am mostly interested as to why you abandoned the DeLorean platform and picked up the fox body to house the flux capacitor. Why change what already works so well?
I understand why you chose Ethanol, it actually works out advantageously in the MPG equivalent ratings and will allow fantastic compression ratios. My question here is: why would you not run the car on 1.21 gigawatts as was intended?
You have to understand the doubts. You cannot take an old fox body, slap some stickers on it and claim 110MPGe without explaining SOMETHING about what is inside. Patents or not there is plenty you can explain without revealing your "secrets." We already know about the turbonator intake, the Amsoil and the water-to-hydrogen booster you are utilizing, but we want to know more before we believe anything.
Doc Brown:
I highly suspect that Horsepowersales.net uses the same marketing techinques that is know to take place in those Nigerian Money Exchange Emails.
"I invented a 20 year old car that gets 110 mpg on corn whiskey, but my uncle was killed by the CIA to keep it out of the limelight, so I am simply asking for your bank account and routing numbers so I can hide my moneys in your account before they seize it, Ill give you 20% return back on your money or my name is not Doc!"
The sarcastic positions taken by Doc Brown and "Bill Nye" are pseudo-rational. It's easy to be skeptical. It takes no effort. No creativity. No work.
However, such skepticism BEFORE an actual competition is simply useless trash talk.
Team HP2g has every right to maintain secrecy about their proprietary technology during the patent process and the build-up to the X PRIZE competition.
From what I can tell Team HP2g isn't trying to sell anything to anyone at the moment. Therefore, Team HP2g is under no obligation to disclose anything that might be of help to their technologically-savvy competitors.
(The patented Valley Girdle Pro is a product sold by Team HP2g's chief engineer and has been tested with promising results by a number of sportsman racers. While it is certainly not the same thing as an expensive "DART block," it does appear to add a degree of stability to the weak valley area of production blocks for a modest cost).
In other forms of motorsports, teams seeking sponsorships don't bare all of their technical secrets to the general public or potential sponsors.
While all of us anxiously await the day when Team HP2g "lifts the hood," proves their claims (either in whole or in part) in documented, objective, independently-verified scientific testing, and explains their accomplishments to the world, sensible, RATIONAL people will wait until the X PRIZE competition for that moment.
Thus, the cynical, armchair musings of Doc Brown and "Bill Nye" are nothing more than the rantings of ignorant, impatient skeptics. If and when Team HP2g fails to deliver IN THE ACTUAL COMPETITION (and not before) , then perhaps such ridicule will be appropriate. Until such day, however, it's just an annoying waste of bandwidth.
BUT WHY USE A NEARLY ANTIQUE MUSTANG AS A STARTING POINT?
Apparently, because they can.
The X PRIZE competition SHOULDN'T just be about who can build the the lightest and highest M.P.G.e recumbent telephone-booth-on-wheels. That's been done scores of times before. The general public has little interest in such impractical, low-performance "futurist cars."
The X PRIZE, however, is a competition about building a "real" vehicle with real-world functionality AND breakthrough "part-throttle" (or off-peak) efficiency during that 95%-97% of the time a street vehicle doesn't need peak power.
Because high performance and sports machines (such as Ford Mustangs) are going to be part of the fleet mix for the foreseeable future, why shouldn't an innovative, grassroots team that manages to meet the threshold benchmarks for eligibility be permitted to compete with one? Why should they be badgered and second-guessed by self-appointed "know-it-alls" before the competition has even started? Why should they be hectored into revealing their proprietary secrets to satisfy the curiosity of armchair critics?
Isn't the actual competition the appropriate time for "putting up or shutting up?"
Given the inefficiency of traditional, mass-produced Otto-cycle engines (especially at part throttle), the minimal levels of horsepower necessary for 70%-85% of street driving (even for relatively large light vehicles), and the vast amount of potential energy in a gallon of E85, its not unbelievable that a breakthrough technology of some sort (or even an innovative combination of existing technologies) could produce dramatic increases in off-peak fuel efficiency.
If Team HP2g can show the X PRIZE officials that they meet the eligibility threshold, then they ought to have the chance to compete.
As for Truth With Speedzzter, We’d be dancing in the streets and cashing in our 401ks to invest if they produced a cost-effective, emissions-legal 45 M.P.G.e "failure," because it would probably mean that V8-powered sports cars, light trucks and SUVs could offered for years to come.
The alleged "thinking objections" of those who question the choice of a V8-powered Mustang as an X PRIZE competition vehicle aren't so much that Team HP2g’s claims are "so unbelievable that suspicion of foul play is warranted" and but instead are subconsciously motivated by the lack of correspondence between their claims and preconceived greeniac notions about what future motoring should become. Alas, not everyone shares such a bland and depressing "dream."
[This should come as no surprise to those familiar with the documented horsepower-phobia of "Click and Clack: The Tappet Brothers" and their legions of disciples]
BUT, there is no harm in withholding judgment until verified test results are available. That's what "thinking people" really do.
THERE ARE NO “ONE SIZE FITS ALL ANSWERS”
The initial entry list for the Automotive X PRIZE contains a wide variety of vehicles. The early speculation, however, centers on a few, highly aerodynamic electric hybrid concept cars proffered by well-funded teams. Team HP2g’s Fox-Body Mustang simply doesn’t fit this profile.
However, even true greeniacs don't reasonably expect people to strap a couple of 4'x8' sheets of drywall on top of a cramped $100,000+ Tesla roadster for the trek from Home Depot to the Job site. Nor could they really contemplate anyone towing a pair of 1000-pound show-horses behind a Fisker Karma. Or taking a 3,000 mile family vacation through the American West in some fruit-cup-sized plug-in electric commuter car.
Simply put, the future will need a diverse set of transportation solutions. And there's also freedom-of-choice to consider.
Moreover, whatever electrification or materials technology is developed in producing a production-viable and mass-marketable M.P.G.e "wundercar" can probably be adapted to improve the off-peak energy use of V8 Mustangs, to produce an even higher cost/benefit ratio of efficiency improvements.
The original rules announcement for the X PRIZE in a way contemplates this logic:
Quote:
It is true that an increase in fuel economy (more miles per gallon) saves fuel (gallons per mile). But the inverse relationship means that greater fuel economy yields diminishing returns.
Here is an example: At 20 MPG, it takes 5 gallons to go 100 miles. At 100 MPG it takes 1 gallon so you save 4 gallons. Double it to 200 MPG and it takes ½ gallon, so you save only ½ gallon more. In fact, an 80 MPGe vehicle achieves 94% of the energy savings as a 100 MPGe vehicle.
Another way to look at this is in terms of the amount of gas used in typical 12,000 miles of annual driving:
Thus, for example, achieving 150 MPGe, offers only a relatively modest increase in fuel saved, but likely at the at the expense of the features, performance, and safety that are needed to make these cars attractive to consumers.
Consumers increasingly want cars that are extremely fuel-efficient and environmentally-friendly, but they don’t want to sacrifice performance. By having a 100 MPGe threshold with a speed race as the basic challenge, we are assuring that the winning vehicle will have close to 4x today’s CAFE fuel economy standard, but are also encouraging designers to focus on comfort, performance, and safety.
If we set the bar much higher (say 150 MPGe), there wouldn’t be a drastic increase in fuel saved, but (given our understanding of today’s technology) there would be significant increased development costs and time-to-market, as well as likely reduction in comfort and other customer-focused features. We would prefer to see many teams bring desirable vehicles to market soon that are 4x more efficient than today’s vehicles than very few entrants bring undesirable vehicles to the market far in the future even if they are 6x more efficient.
Team HP2g, if successful, may be able to speed up this "technology transfer" process. Undoubtedly that's heresy to those "superior" ones believe that any V8 is "soul crushing" and stupid.
Nothing in Team HP2g's entry suggests that their proprietary technology couldn't be scaled to fit a tea-cup-sized electric hybrid.
And obviously Paccar (Peterbuilt), Wal-Mart, John Deere, GM and others are working on hybrid electrification of heavy commercial vehicles, so R&D in this area is hardly being neglected.
The open question for practical light vehicles, however, concerns the optimal mix of electrification and IC propulsion. Current high voltage batteries are heavy, expensive and subject to cold weather declines in performance. Current high-torque AC motors are also heavy and expensive. And even a small generator (or gas turbo-generator) of sufficient amp/hr output to propel a work vehicle has a not inconsequential weight. Thus, a useful electric hybrid vehicle cannot be lightened beyond a certain threshold without dramatic increases in cost and losses of functionality.
Downsizing "the electrics" to either a start-stop (microhybrid) system or a lower-power Honda IMA-style low-speed hybrid could prove to be a more economically reasonable balance.
The point of Team HP2g's entry is to showcase high performance powertrain technology that's attractive to the current mass market and adaptable to both heavy work vehicles and sporty machines. It is not to suggest that there are not feasible alternatives to moving the same mass with a greater quantum of Ready Kilowatts.
By the way, the fact that an engine has eight cylinders has little to do with its off-peak fuel efficiency.
For example, a giant, quaking four can be horribly inefficient and a pocket-sized V8 can be made very frugal. Improvements in thermal efficiency, lean burn systems, ethanol boosting, stratified pre-combustion chambers, cylinder deactivation, variable valve timing, turbocharging, turbocompounding and other emerging efficiency technologies could make V8s produce startling fuel efficiency numbers without any technological breakthroughs . . . and without losing the characteristics that have made V8s traditional favorites in the 3%-5% of the time when extra torque, horsepower and the glorious symphony sounds thereof are desired.
V8s are hardly evil incarnate, except in the perceptions of those (such as Click and Clack, the Tappett Brothers) who would dictate how we exercise our future automotive freedoms.
THE PROOF WILL BE IN THE COMPETITION
Some are wringing their collective hands at the secrecy of Team HP2g in the build-up to the X PRIZE competition:
"[T]hey don't answer even abstract questions about how they claim to achieve it."
Of course that will all be public record when the patent is approved and after the X PRIZE qualifing "race." What's the hurry? Answers to even abstract questions can sometimes reveal too much to industry insiders. I suspect their lawyers told them to say as little as posible.
"[T]they don't use an aerodynamic vehicle"
But they're prototyping an SUV engine! The Cd of an '80s Mustang isn't terrible (mid 30s) and it's a lot better than most SUVs or light trucks.
The frontal area of a fox-body Mustang is also reasonably attractive for a mainstream design. Besides, a quick scan of the X PRIZE entries shows more than a few vehicles as large and "unaerodynamic" as Team HP2g's Mustang, so not all of the engineers in the Mainstream Class are convinced that wild aero packages are necessary to run the number.
"[T]hey don't use a light vehicle"
Weight certainly is an issue and a major contributor to low-speed fuel use. But Team HP2g's car is about 1000 pounds lighter than a new Mustang and a couple of thousand lighter than Neil Young's Lincoln. By the way, a 2008 Prius weighs in at about a ton and a half. Team HP2g's advertised weight is 25 LESS than the curb weight of a 2008 Civic Hybrid. Even given the "heavy weight" and "horrible aero" of an '80s Mustang, it will take significantly less than 20 h.p. to maintain highway speeds.
A breakthrough in engine efficiency could theoretically extract enough energy from E85 to make high mileage possible. Something as simple as just temporarily deactivating half of the cylinders on a stock 5.7 liter Corvette (and using no new thermal recovery strategies or electrical assists) will raise the M.P.G. to 35 on the US EPA highway cycle, according to GM researchers. Team HP2g likely has "pushed the envelope" much, much farther than that
"[T]hey don't use a novel engine type (stock V8.)"
They claim a V8 configuration, but nothing in their materials says or even implies that it's "stock" or even close to stock. Instead they claim to have spent thousands of dollars on special castings, "electronics," and other custom parts.
"[A] prius with special engine and hybrid drive manages 50MPG."
A non-turbocharged Atkinson-cycle four on gasoline is hardly "special."
"[A] honda insight hybrid manages around 65MPG"
With a small, ordinary four cylinder augmented by some well-known valve timing gimmicks and a relatively small electric assist motor. Yawn. Zzzzz
"[A]nd they claim 110MPGe"
They'll have to prove at least 75 m.p.g. at the qualifer, won't they.
"[T]hey talk about racing and not fuel efficiency."
Have you read the X PRIZE rules? Did you miss the part about closed course testing on race tracks? Have you missed all of the references by the organizers calling the X PRIZE competition a "race?" And if they claim 110 M.P.G.e, aren't they talking about fuel economy?
"I see nothing in their favor..
even down to using a primary red font on a black background on their webpage."
Now that's a substantive reason to believe they're just a bunch of con artists . . . .
"[A]nd the date they claimed they would publish and demonstrate only amounted to a drag race. no showing of any relevant aspects. no video of the car where you could listen if it was just a completely stock [M]ustang"
They didn't claim they would "publish" anything. All they said was they were testing in public. One would expect that if the Car was a "completely stock Mustang" that somebody in the press or at Milan or atRocket Ventures would have figured that out by now.
Truth with Speedzzter has no idea whether Team HP2g will be able to make good on their claims or not. However, it does absolutely no good to ridicule the team before the competition has even started.
If one believes the future of private transportation is only soulless, cramped telephone-booths-on-wheels, powered by permanently-sealed "black box" propulsion units, then perhaps "a drag race" is irrelevant.
But, the fundamental idea of the X PRIZE isn't just to build the most compromised and highest m.p.g. vehicle possible. It's about building cars with "real world" attributes AND advanced operational efficiency.
In the real world, there are people who want increased "part throttle" fuel efficiency, yet still need (or want) serious power during 3%-5% of the driving cycle. There are people who will continue to need light vehicles that retain the occasional capacity to haul heavy loads of goods and equipment at highway speeds. There are people who will never surrender motoring enjoyment and performance capability at the "altar" of m.p.g. There are still people who desire dual purpose cars that can be driven daily and raced on the weekends.
Drag racing is a well-documented way to demonstrate the peak output and durability of an engine. It can demonstrate an important part of an engine's capability to the technologically-aware segment of the motoring public. It can also generate interest in a new concept or idea.
A 100 year tradition of automobile racing and "hot rodding" isn't just going to evaporate because a minority of power-hungry environmentalist-socialists are spreading their new global religion of "climate change." Thus, whatever happens, some of us will still be racing whatever there is left to race.
The X PRIZE would be a total failure if it degenerates into a ephemeral competition between flimsy, freakish and impractical experimental "cars" that do nothing well but sip fuel. At least Team HP2g has entered a vehicle with "real world" attributes of interest to the millions who don't plan on giving up the essence of high performance motoring merely to appease the greeniacs.
Truth with Speedzzter sincerely hopes Team HP2g can meet and even exceed their audacious claims . . . and do it with a V8! But it does no good to "trash talk" against them until they've had their day in the actual competition.
The bottom line is that Team HP2g has no obligation to say anymore to the public than has been necessary to secure the sponsorships required to compete in the X PRIZE. If I were them, I'd be enjoying all of the questioning and baseless speculation by the "intelligencia."
We will all know in due time during the X PRIZE competition.
http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=227 http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=224
________________________
Truth with Speedzzter hereby grants express permission to Team HP2g and the officials of the Automotive X PRIZE competition and Ford Motor Company (R) to use the foregoing blog entry with attribution.
All other rights reserved. Copyright 2008, 2009. The trademarks used herein and any copyrighted material quoted are the property of their various holders and are used herein under the terms of the Fair Use Doctrine of U.S. Copyright law.
Truth with Speedzzter is not affiliated with Team HP2g, Ford Motor Company (R) or the X Prize Foundation and does not intend to imply any relationship between Ford Motor Company (R)and any person or group.
Labels: Automotive X Prize, Doug Pelmear, Electric Hybrid Mustang, Ford Motor Company, Mustang, Team HP2g
posted by Speedzzter at 9:58 AM
5 Comments:
Bill Nye is an asshole.
E85 doesn't have tremendous energy potential. It has roughly 2/3rds the energy of gasoline per gallon. You want to know why its a scam? Simple.
EPA claims the gas mileage of an 87 V8 Mustang is 17 mpg. They claim theirs is 110 mpg. Let's assume for the moment that they are playing a numbers game and are getting 110 mpg if they had the octane benefits of ethanol but were running on gasoline, that still represents a 650% improvement. The theoretical efficiency of an Otto cycle engine is about 33%, and most cars are probably around 20%. That means, for a given Otto cycle engine, you could maybe only double the gas mileage, and that's not going to get you anywhere near what they are claiming.
Heck, even if you extracted every bit of energy out of the fuel, you still wouldn't be getting 110 mpg. Maybe if you extracted every bit of energy, lightened it up, and changed the gearing, 110 mpg would be plausible. But, the concept of getting 100% efficiency out of any internal combustion engine is a joke. They don't mention anything about weight reduction, there are no signs of any significant aerodynamic improvements which truly are low hanging fruit and the most obvious first step to get gas mileage. To get 0-60 in 3 seconds on 400 hp is almost unbelievable as well. The latest Z06 Vettes which have more power, more torque, are more aerodynamic and lighter aren't anywhere close to 3 seconds on 0-60 -- clearly, if true, someone's playing games with the gearing which would only work against fuel economy.
Oh, and have you actually looked at the X-Prize website? They list teams... I sure as heck can't find their team listed.
What do you say now thatHP2G has pulled out of the X-prize competition?
We've updated this story many times in subsequent posts. For the latest HP2g info available to "Truth With Speedzzter," Please click on the tags at the bottom of the post.
Truth With Speedzzter remains respectfully skeptical of HP2g's claims until such time as they are proven in verifiable, objective, independent testing. However, given the abysmal part-throttle efficiency of Otto-cycle ICEs, it is not categorically impossible that someone could engineer dramatic improvements in converting heat to useable energy.
It DOES do good to point out that the claims made are physically impossible. I did a thorough analysis using very straightforward techniques based purely on elementary physics and data from HP2g's web site. Many of the mileage claims in their log would require getting far more energy from the E85 than is available in the chemical bonds. In other words, it would be operating at over 100% efficiency.
I'm not one to say the Otto cycle cannot be improved upon, but it's not possible to create something from nothing, unless you are God. It's not a waste of bandwidth to point this out.
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